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:关于罗马和汉朝哪个更强,看看老外的观点

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After some while when the parthians were defeated, the chinese general who sieged the parthians recalled yellow haired barbarians in the parthians troops who used what he defines as a fish scale formation, with shields linked together. He also recalled seeing them used double palisades for defense (No doubt roman).
Before violently reacting to my posts, google the ones below.
My source - Homer Dubbs, historian.
The city of Lee Jien, the lost roman city in china.
老天啊,别再提罗马对阵汉朝了,这里有一个现成的答案。
公元100年左右,罗马与安息发生了战争。罗马败。安息用重装骑兵左右移动,不停调动着罗马军团,以至于军团阵型逐渐分散混乱,安息不断向罗马军团的薄弱位置发起进攻。罗马的长矛盾墙战术无法应付近距离战斗,10到15英尺的长矛无法组成有效的环形防御阵型。一旦被安息人冲破了防线,罗马人死定了。
数年后安息控制了丝绸之路,中国不高兴,派出军队驱逐安息人。中国人在战术及武器上都占有优势。中国人用的枪啊矛啊三叉戟与罗马15英尺长矛和比较沉重的短剑相比,质量更好,灵活性更强,更适合于安息人作战。
交战后不久安息人溃败。中国将领事后回忆,被包围的安息人中有一支“黄毛野蛮人”部队,采用的是他所谓的鱼鳞阵,盾牌与盾牌相连组成盾墙,他还回忆起那些“黄毛野蛮人”部队用双层的木栅栏做防御用(毫无疑问,这个“黄毛野蛮人”部队应该就是安息军中被俘虏的罗马军团士兵)。


肯定是汉朝啊。古中国不是世界第一吗


The Romans had weak cavalry. On the other hand, the Han had very strong cavalry armed with spears and bows.
Han infantry was weak though, but they did have very powerful crossbows. The Romans also equipped their soldiers with better armor. 同装备了标枪和弓箭的汉朝骑兵相比,罗马骑兵处于劣势。
当然汉朝步兵较弱,但是他们有威力强大的弩,想要打败汉军,罗马人需要更精良的盔甲。 #3.
romanss


21.Re:#15.
Rome in her time also fought several discipline armies.
1. The armies of Carthage.
2. King Philip V of Macedon's pike Phalanx
3. Seulecids phalanx and Cataphract army
They beat them all.
Although Han unde Wudi destroyed the Huns.
罗马也曾经打败过几支纪律严明的部队。
1.迦太基
2.菲利普五世的马其顿长矛方阵 (第二次马其顿战争)
3.塞琉古长矛方阵和重装部队 (叙利亚战争)
罗马把他们全都打败了,尽管武帝在位时汉朝打败了匈奴。 #22.
most of the 500,000 were auxilaries.
the chinese had impressice formations, and brilliant generals.and ancient china certainly did have a technological advantage.
罗马的50万部队中大部分是辅助军团。中国有令人印象深刻的阵法,出色的将领,而且古代中国有技术上的优势。 #23.Re:#22.
At its height, Rome commanded 30 legions. That is 300,000 professional legionaires.
The Chinese did not have as impressive formations, and both sides had brilliant generals.
Also, the Han only had one technological advantage: the crossbow.
巅峰时期罗马有30个军团,那可以30万职业军团士兵啊。
中国军队的阵法也马马虎虎,出色的将领罗马也有,而且汉朝只有一个技术上的优势:弩。 #24.
and the compass, and the silk trade which rome loved.and they had sun-tsu and his art of war.
指南针,丝绸之路,孙子兵法。


well, a roman legion was very well organize, a roman legion was composed of 10 cohort...
the roman also fight in 3 lines, so if the cavalry break the 1st line, the 2nd will always counter-charge. The legionnary was unbeateable on hand-to-hand fighting. It's be pretty interesting a combat between those 2.
罗马军队组织严密,一个军团由10个步兵方阵组成...(以下略去,主要介绍罗马军团构成,这位也是ctrl+v来的,请大家自行google吧。)
罗马军团展开后由条战线构成,即使骑兵冲破了第一线,第二线的士兵也会马上反冲锋。在肉搏战中,罗马军团是不可战胜的。想象双方的战斗一定很有趣。 #33.Re:#32.
Of course, you can use cavalary to attack from the rear, the flanks, or from multiple angles at once. Also, swords are not very effective against cavalry, especially spear-armed cavalry. Also, cavalry archers are very hard to counter with heavy infantry.
骑兵可是会从后方,侧翼等多个角度发起攻击的,而且短剑对付骑兵不是很有效,特别是对付装备了标枪的骑兵。而且重装步兵很难反击骑射部队的攻击。


#47.
Rome do have very formidable discipline and tactics. But they do not have monopoly of it.
In han China, crossbowmen are arrange in 3 ranks to alternate fire (front rank - fires; rear rank reloads; middle rank -advance). Doing so ensures a consistant barrage. These crossbowmen are protected by a shield wall of heavy infantry from melee attacks.
罗马的军纪和战术都是令人畏惧的,但也不只是罗马。
汉代中国,弩兵分为三个轮次交替射击(第一轮次的射击,最后一轮的装箭,中间一轮的准备)。确保能形成一道连续不断的火力网。弩兵被手持盾牌的重步兵保护着避免遭遇肉搏战。 #48.Re:#46.
I was just showing that battles can be won with luck.
我只是想证明有时候真的能靠运气取胜。


#58.
I think Rome may have superior training and discipline for its troops. It also has contacted many other parts of the world. China, on the other hand, has fewer contact with other nations.
我认为罗马军队的训练和士气更佳,而且和世界其他地区的接触也更广泛。反观中国,几乎不怎么和其他国家接触。 #59.
the rome and the hans all shall one enemy: the Huns. from what i've learned, the huns almost destoried the rome while the hans have managed to keep them out of its boarder.
罗马和汉朝有一个共同的敌人:匈族人。反正我是这么学的:被汉朝赶跑的匈族人毁灭了罗马。(正如前文所说,我个人认为不应该把汉朝与罗马的实力对比简单地归结的到一个剪刀石头布的模型中。) #60.
That's what I was thinking. Many historians think what we Chinese call the Xiong Nu barbarians are Huns. China eventually driven them further West.
应该是这样,很多历史学家认为我们中国人所称的匈奴人就是西方所称的“匈族人”,实际上是中国把他们赶到的西方。


Roman rectangular shields are fairly thin to my suprise when I saw a replicated one in Seattle (around 1cm). However, their curved surface are excellent at deflecting blows from melee weapons. The thing weights about 20 or 25 pounds with brass carrying handle. Roman legionnaries can safely use their stabbing sword while staying behind the safety of their shields.
Back to the question of Han dynasty crossbow. Studies conducted in China have shown that the crossbow can effectively pierce through two layers of steel plate both 5mm thick at the range of 150 meters. That kind of penetration is only achieved with the British yew longbow. So the answer to the question is yes. However the romans fielded another type of round buckler made of iron at the time which the crossbow may not have enough power to penetrate through. The downside of the iron buckler is its relatively small surface area(around 20cm in ) and it is not widely used by the Roman army.
当我在西雅图见到一个罗马方形盾的复制品的时候,不敢相信它是那么的薄(大约1厘米厚)。虽然如此,它的弧形表面在遭到攻击的时候能让近战武器偏出。那玩意算上黄铜质的把手大约20-25磅重。军团士兵能安全地躲在盾牌后面挥舞他们的短刃。
回到你关于汉弩的问题。在中国的研究表明汉弩在150米的射程能有效地穿过双层5毫米厚的铁板。其穿透性达到了英国紫杉长弓的水平。所以答案是肯定。但是也许汉弩不能轻易地穿过另一种罗马军队装备的圆盾,这种铁质圆盾的缺点是覆盖面比较小(半径大约20厘米),罗马军队没有广泛的装备。 #76.


Romans could not solve a problem which is after the sword queeches, the iron sword became really soft, could be snapped easyily. therefore romans had short swords instead of long swords, (otherwise, snap... )
But Han had some technology, such as tempering and Point hardening, which was very helpful. Chinese solders could have a iron sword around 60-80 cm long, and it is the best length for fighting.
Also the Hardness of Romans weapons were around 100-400 HV (normally, short sword was around 200 something, the hardest was a knife, aroudn 700 HV.
people found some iron sword during the Warring states, the hardness up to 560 HV
Hardness of Qin's bronze Sword were around 150-300 Hv
Hardness of Han's iron Sword were around 500-1200 Hv.
And i can tell u guys what kind of tactics did huns use to aginst Roman's and Han'
They fire lots of the arrows to the air, therefore Romans use their shield to guard top of themself. at same time some Huns fire horizontally. Then use cavalry to RUSH to the Romans.
But Han's had a weapon called wu gang che. 6 metre long, 4.2 m wide (might be smaller. ) pikes were in the front of it and big shield on the top and sides, and also, it can carry a few crossbow man as well.
In the battles, Han placed Wu gang che in a circle or build a defense line,Use crossbow man to defend and cavalary rushed to Huns base camp.
Crossbow man had different version of croosbow as well. They are called one shi, 2 shi up to 10 shi. ( one shi equals to the force is need to left up around a mass of 30 Kg )
from range of 300- 800 meters.
罗马人在萃取方面遇到了技术问题,以至于铁质刀剑变得很软,非常容易断掉,这才是罗马用短刃代替长剑的原因。
但是汉朝有温度控制和硬化剂添加方面的技术,这对于制作武器非常有用。汉朝士兵的剑一般在60-80厘米之间,这个长度最适合作战。
罗马的武器硬度大概在100-400HV(一般短剑在200HV左右,最坚硬的如匕首之类,大概在700HV)。
人们发现了一些战国时期的铁质刀剑,硬度超过560HV。
秦朝铜剑硬度大概在150-300HV之间。
汉代铁剑硬度大概在500-1200HV之间。
我再告诉各位匈奴究竟是用何种战术来对付罗马和汉朝。
他们会向天空中射出大量的箭矢(!!!让箭以抛物线轨迹进行攻击),罗马人不得不用盾牌从上方进行防御。但有时匈奴人也会向水平方向射击,然后用骑兵冲击敌人。
但是汉朝有一种叫做武刚车的装备。6米长,4.2米宽(也许更小)。长矛捆在车前,四周立上坚固的盾牌,而且能乘上不少弩兵。
战斗中,汉军让几辆武刚车做环形防卫,或者用很多武刚车组成防御阵线。用弩兵进行防御,然后派突骑攻击敌人主帐。
汉朝弩兵有不同型号的弩可供选择。从一石弩、二石弩以此类推到十石弩。(张弓引满一石的弩,相当提起约30千克重物所用的力。)射程能在300-800米之间。 HV,维氏硬度,以120kg以内的载荷和顶角为136°的金刚石方形锥压入器压入材料表面,用材料压痕凹坑的表面积除以载荷值,即为维氏硬度值(HV)。
武刚车是中国古代的一种兵车,是载兵的车辆,用于陆上战斗。据古籍吴 孙《兵法》云:“有巾有盖,谓之武刚车”。武刚车长二丈,阔一丈四,车外侧绑长矛,内侧置大盾。《史记·卫将军骠骑列传》:“於是大将军( 卫青 )令武刚车自环为营,而纵五千骑往当 匈奴 。”《后汉书·舆服志上》:“ 吴 孙 《兵法》云:‘有巾有盖,谓之武刚车。’武刚车者,为先驱。又为属车轻车,为后殿焉。”三国时诸葛亮的八卦车法,就是用战车阻击骑兵的战法。他创造的运粮用的木牛、流马就是武钢车的演化。东晋时马隆就靠八卦阵法和战车,打败了游牧民族羌人的入侵。
据汉简和古文献记载,汉弩的强度都要经过严格校验,汉弩分1、3、4、5、6、7、8、10石诸种。其中10石弩又称为大黄弩、黄肩弩或大黄力弩,强度最大,射程可达约400米。这就是说,要拉开大黄弩上弦,需要5、6百斤的力量。 这么大强度的弩机,普通兵士是很难单独完成上弩、进弩和发弩的全过程的,所以汉代最常用的弩机是六石弩,其张力为3、4百斤,射程约240米。 汉朝名将李广于公元前121年与匈奴作战时,在众寡悬殊的情况下,以大黄弩射杀对方将领而扭转战局。汉朝郡国还组成了以弩手为主的步兵兵团,其指挥员的官号有的就称“强弩将军”。 #124.
Han Chinese - Missile weapons. Good cavalries, armours for every soldier, overwhelming numbers, smart and strategic generals.
Romans - Great formations and disciplane soldiers. Dunno more.
汉朝-强弩,优秀的骑兵,每个士兵装备有盔甲,数量上的优势,机智且有战略眼光的将领。
罗马-优秀的阵型,纪律性强的士兵。


中国的兵家是百家之一,可不是说着玩的,中国的先秦远古时期的人确实很牛,在宋朝之前中国的军事思想绝对是世界上最高的,但是在元朝以后中国的军事思想就落后于西方了,蒙古西征让西方人知道反思自己军事思想的落后,蒙古人西征让西方的军事思想开始进步,直到后来西方的军事思想越来越强,直到现在都是西方军事思想占据主流。


2018-09-24 18:04 广告
房地产出来吧


国恒以弱灭,而汉独以强亡


远距离汉近距离硬拼应该是罗马


我去都好专业


比这些有什么用,过去不代表现在更不代表将来,参考美国


匈奴被大汉打的屁滚尿流的到了西方灭了罗马


一部电影而已,却让那么多了成了历史学家。
我服了。


围观


古罗马是奴隶社会,汉是封建社会。光社会文明都差了1个等级


不止历史了,英语都来了,害我边看边译给朋友。


玲珑骰子安红豆,入骨相思知不知


油菜花


汉朝歼灭了匈奴主力,余下匈奴部族中的一部分逃亡去了欧洲,然后他们就灭掉了罗马


魅族


罗马之后,再无罗马。雄汉之后,再立盛唐。千年以后,欧陆分崩,千古刹那,华夏永存。


说那么多干嘛?今天罗马文字和种族在哪?


历史不能假设,
如果真要假设,我希望罗马灭了汉朝,那样现在的中国就是欧洲大国。


中国是从宋以后衰落的。
“万般皆下品,惟有读书高”是宋真宗提的。
唐宋八大家是宋朝人评选的。
“诗仙”、“诗圣”这些名号是宋人取的。
就是从这时候起,读书人人开始四体不勤,五谷不分了。手无缚鸡之力你懂得。


至于唐朝的风气,那是“男儿何不带吴钩”,李白本身就是一名游侠,当年和同伴游猎云梦泽,武力应该不低,而且古代多盗贼山民,有没有照片识人的技术,即使名满天下,也没人知道你的模样,所以那时候能游历中国的,必然有高强的武艺。正史记载的一人灭一国的王玄策就是唐朝人,看看他的事迹,你就知道当时中国有多尚武了。
至于汉朝,“犯我强汉者,虽远必诛“你懂得。


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